Player Made Deals

[The underdog]

I get muted for less.

[Nazuths]

Just use a middleman, players clearly have no idea what proper proof is.

[Iron bubble]

Disable free trade is the only logical solution!

This incident aside, I think Ryan brings the most valid point to giving the staff team more to work with. Clearly stating in PMs or whatever "Monys Vs Nazuths - 1t risk fight - I agree" or some shit like that goes a lot farther than "gl 1t". Context and conciseness is what would have clearly defined who was in the "wrong" here.

It should be extremely clear who's in the wrong here by looking at the logs and seeing arrsenic drop the 1t after showing it before he went to the wild. That in combination with the screenshots should VERY clearly show what happened. The discussion shouldn't be whether or not arrsenic scammed, because he clearly did, the discussion is about the rule that lets him get away with blatantly scamming because it was a "player made deal".

I mean if it shows that in the logs there should be punishment regardless of if "player made deals" was used or not. Clearly acting in bad faith by doing that, ANY court of law (and don't ask me how I'm saying that, Im a member in good standing of the Ontario Bar) would rule against Arrsenic, frankly I'd be very concerned if I was a new player on this server and stuff like this was allowed to happen.

Like I said, this deserves a proper investigation by Pkhonor staff team, you hold ex-staff to a higher standard. If this whole thing is true, and there is blatant proof of malicious intent in the logs then he should be punished, maybe not forced to pay up but a temporary ban would suffice, or conditional ban contingent on payment.

Player made deals is a stupid concept to apply in this instance, it is inconvenient and frankly only makes sense for services. You can easily loophole and say the player made deal forum post was made for one specific fight and not the next or you could change your gear/amount risked and it invalidates the PMD. There should be a risk arena like yesterday, every single relevant server has it, Pkhonor is lagging.

Any other server, this is a ban, especially if proof like this is available, not to mention 10-15 witnesses. Im just saying.

[James]

just get everyone to agree to ragging and verbally abusing him forever, easy solution

[Fungamer]

Just use a middleman, players clearly have no idea what proper proof is.

Agree but then again it's kinda easy to say after the fact. If proof from logs in combination with screenshots is enough to point to this being a scam, it should be dealt with as.... A scam. Are you going to tell a pedestrian that he should've looked out even though they got hit by a drunk driver? Yeah they could've avoided the car but like... That doesn't justify the drunk driving.

I find it a bit unclear what the actual rules surrounding scamming are right now. The official rules state the following:

2) No scamming or luring
You may not trick another player in order to steal their items or cause losses to them by spreading false information about how the game works or abusing game mechanics to orchestrate a deception. This does not include trust-based agreements made between players where someone is expected to keep their word.

Examples of scamming include:

• Luring a player into an unsafe area by telling them it is safe and/or falsely claiming there is something valuable to be found there
• Falsely telling a player they will receive a special reward if they alch a valuable item or press alt-F4 in a dangerous area

While agreements between players can be eligible for refunds if made through our player-made deals system, failing to hold up your end of an agreement is not a punishable offence.

The things Arrsenic is being accused of doing wouldn't be against the rules, if we follow this rule set.

Thing is... About a year and a half ago @Patel and I gave input on the rules and there was a rule discussion thread:

You may not trick or deceive another player in order to steal their items or cause losses to them (ingame statuses, stats, weath, etc.).

Examples of scamming include, but are not limited to:

- Spreading false information about how the game works or abusing game mechanics to orchestrate a player to be deceived and lose money or items.
- Not honoring (the specifics of) an agreement i.e during services or risk fights.*
- Letting someone else log onto your account to do a risk fight without the other party knowing this will happen.
- Luring a player into an unsafe area by telling them it is safe and/or falsely claiming there is something valuable to be found there.
- Falsely telling a player they will receive a special reward if they alch a valuable item or press alt-F4 in a dangerous area.
- Not giving items or money back when having agreed to it being a trust trade or loan


* If (one of the) specifics for a risk fight were not agreed upon beforehand, these things will default to being "allowed" to do. For example, if you and your opponent didn't agree on whether or not it was a death match, both you and your opponent are free to tab out when you feel like it.
In the context of a service, both players are always held to the baseline agreements for services made here


Not all forms of deception are considered scamming. I.e.

- Using an unknown alt account in the wilderness.
- Tricks that don't cause players to lose anything.
- Not splitting loot while PvMing.
- Selling an item at a higher than usual price, while not lying about its rarity or function.

Agreements between players can be eligible for refunds if the staff team is able to recover the lost items and/or money. However, they will not spawn new items into the economy in order to refund you.

While we can punish a player for scamming if they do not hold up their part of the agreement (provided there is clear proof from in-game screenshots and/or videos), we encourage all players to use the Player Made Deal section when engaging in these agreements to ensure things go as smoothly as possible: viewforum.php?f=138


Be sure to ask a staff member if you are unsure your actions will get you in trouble for scamming.

Though there wasn't much input from other users in terms of content, the vast majority voted "yes" for this set of rules to go in effect. And I'm not sure if we're operating under these rules - Ryan said he'd re-word some things and then update it, but the last time our rules were updated were before that thread was even a thing. It was last modified on 2020/11/14 16:10 by Rapsey to be precise.

If the server is operating under these rules (and frankly I thought it was after Ryans final post on the thread & never bothered to check the wiki, nothing against you Ryan but this might've been a huge communication error from the staff-side of things) but didn't have it updated on the wiki yet, Arrsenic would've absolutely been breaking the rules if he did what he is being accused of. Pleading ignorance because the rules were not updated yet would be kind of unreasonable as well considering he was around during that time & if I recall correctly, his incident with Hallow was the whole reason why this push for a rule change started to begin with.

The only thing Vinny would not be entitled to is a refund directly from an admin. However these rules would allow staff to punish or threaten with punishment if Arrsenic didn't pay up & we are operating under the "new" ruleset. Going forward, this ruleset should go onto the wiki to avoid these kinds of incidents from happening over and over again, since this isn't the first (alleged) scam case that has happened in the past year or so. In fact some people who absolutely did scam got off scot free while this updated rule should've already been in effect.

[Edonist]

The fact that this thread is even a thing is ridiculous. Clearly, there was an intention to deceive because the tickets were put up the first few times but not the last. Either give him what he should've received for this fight or ban arrs.

As my suggestion for a fix to this scenario, I will use examples from a very popular and successful server that is solely based around pking.


#1: make a risk fighting zone- Clan wars- once a players crosses the ditch he is instantly redskulled and his risk is displayed in public chat. “I am currently risking 100b” there is no dropping or trading items once you are across the ditch. What you bring across the ditch is what you risk

#2: make ::redskull instantly state your risked amount in Public chat

#3: add a ::risk command usable in wildy that states your risked amount in public chat

#4: use perfectly reliable screenshots to enforce punishment/reimbursement for scammed players. There is absolutely no reason that screenshots aren’t sufficient evidence. That’s pure laziness on the staff team. If you wish to be a moderator+ then be willing to do moderator+ work. On a server with a player base of ~100 there isn’t much investigating/reports to deal with that would take up too much time.

I like this

[Nazuths]

I'm not sure where this "clearly" keeps coming from, how is it so clear to everyone what happened? The screenshots seen prove nothing, aside from that there's been no proof. Why is everyone so biased when it comes to Arrsenic? Where's video proof of what happened, proper screenshots of the risk fight agreement (full chats)? I can't believe we're arguing based on something that everyone's so convinced of happened, when there's no shred of evidence that supports it? What exactly has the logs shown? How is everyone so certain the logs indicate foul play in any way? I'm confusion.

Cesare Nazuths out.

[Iron adam]

I'm not sure where this "clearly" keeps coming from, how is it so clear to everyone what happened? The screenshots seen prove nothing, aside from that there's been no proof. Why is everyone so biased when it comes to Arrsenic? Where's video proof of what happened, proper screenshots of the risk fight agreement (full chats)? I can't believe we're arguing based on something that everyone's so convinced of happened, when there's no shred of evidence that supports it? What exactly has the logs shown? How is everyone so certain the logs indicate foul play in any way? I'm confusion.

Cesare Nazuths out.

I think a few people who are "so sure" on this thread are like that because they were watching the livestream of this happening. They watched him put up the 1T before each fight, and in the one where he died, he simply dropped the tickets before he died. From what I understand there is no recording of this, but it was witnessed by multiple people. Obviously the staff team can't take witness statements as evidence.

[Ahmed elrahi]

I'm not sure where this "clearly" keeps coming from, how is it so clear to everyone what happened? The screenshots seen prove nothing, aside from that there's been no proof. Why is everyone so biased when it comes to Arrsenic? Where's video proof of what happened, proper screenshots of the risk fight agreement (full chats)? I can't believe we're arguing based on something that everyone's so convinced of happened, when there's no shred of evidence that supports it? What exactly has the logs shown? How is everyone so certain the logs indicate foul play in any way? I'm confusion.

Cesare Nazuths out.

As I previously stated cringe nazuths (did I spell that right?) the proof has been sent to the people that deserve to see the proof in the report a player section. It’s not any business to the public.

Everyone arguing this was a pure witness to the event whether watching my stream on discord or at edgeville for the risk and the stated agreement.

Don’t come to me about “biased”. If the roles were reversed and I was the one that scammed then your mental anger radar would explode and you’d have my house swatted.

Keep this discussion on topic or don’t reply. Thanks.

[Nazuths]

I'm not sure where this "clearly" keeps coming from, how is it so clear to everyone what happened? The screenshots seen prove nothing, aside from that there's been no proof. Why is everyone so biased when it comes to Arrsenic? Where's video proof of what happened, proper screenshots of the risk fight agreement (full chats)? I can't believe we're arguing based on something that everyone's so convinced of happened, when there's no shred of evidence that supports it? What exactly has the logs shown? How is everyone so certain the logs indicate foul play in any way? I'm confusion.

Cesare Nazuths out.

As I previously stated cringe nazuths (did I spell that right?) the proof has been sent to the people that deserve to see the proof in the report a player section. It’s not any business to the public.

Everyone arguing this was a pure witness to the event whether watching my stream on discord or at edgeville for the risk and the stated agreement.

Don’t come to me about “biased”. If the roles were reversed and I was the one that scammed then your mental anger radar would explode and you’d have my house swatted.

Keep this discussion on topic or don’t reply. Thanks.

I must've forgot this topic isn't about Arrsenic, probably got sidetracked by all the people saying he should get banned for what he did. My bad. 5-1.